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From: rturkel@cas.org (Rick Turkel)
Subject: Re: talmid and talmud
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In article <3hea08$cia@gaia.ucs.orst.edu>,
James Deardorff <deardorj@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>I've been trying to determine about how far back in time the word "talmud"
>extends within Hebrew or Aramaic.  Not being knowledgeable in the area, my
>first clue so far comes from the Encyc. Judaica, which mentions that "talmud"
>had the meaning of teachings received by one or more pupils.  So from that I
>can only guess that the word predates the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds.
>
>My second clue, from a Bible concordance, is that "talmid" means
>"pupil" and occurred as far back in time as when Deuteronomy was written.
>Would the similar word "talmud" then have derived from "talmid" and also date
>to many centuries BCE?  Is the change in ending from "id" to "ud" significant,
>or would the two words appear the same in ancient print?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>______________
>Jim Deardorff

Well, you've got the meanings more or less correct, but you seem to be
missing a bit about the structure of Semitic languages.  Most words are
based on a root consisting of three consonants (sometimes two, sometimes
four), upon which patterns of vowels, prefixes and/or suffixes are
superimposed.  The root conveys the general meaning, while the pattern
modifies the general meaning in a pretty regular way.  In the case at
hand, the root of both "talmid" and "talmud" is lamed-mem-daled, meaning
"learn."  Thus, "-id" and "-ud" in these words are not endings but rather
different final vowels in the patterns.  Patterns beginning with a tav,
as in both these words, usually convey a meaning of incompleteness; a
true student never ceases to learn, and learning (i.e., talmud) is never
complete.

"Talmid" appears first in Chronicles I 25,8 (which is significantly
later than Deuteronomy) and subsequently in many places in the Mishna,
which is dated to the second century c.e.  The earliest occurrences of
"talmud" are in the Mishna, which predates the Talmud (Mishna + Gemara)
by about 400 years.  The two words are not spelled the same; the former
has a yod where the latter has a vav.

Hope this helps.
-- 
Rick Turkel         (___  _____  _  _  _  _  __     _  ___   _   _  _  ___
rturkel@freenet.columbus)oh.us|   |  \  )  |/  \     |    |   |   \__)    |
rturkel@cas.org        /      |  _| __)/   | ___)    | ___|_  |  _(  \    |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money.  Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.
