### Amway: The Untold Story

## Your Comments, Part 57

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Here are some of the responses I've received to the information on this page. I've left them as is, except for a) removing the names to protect privacy, and b) reformatting them to fit the screen better.

This is a long file...I suggest downloading it to your computer and reading it off-line.

My thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute their opinions.

[NOTE: Some of these messages contain offensive language]

Today, October 22, 1998, there appeared in the Grand Rapids ( MI ) Press, an un-biased account of the existence of your web site and a relatively neutral account of the P-G vs. Amway court matter. You may not appreciate this statement fully, but to we who have grown up with the Amway Corporation in the Grand Rapids area, this is unusual. The Press has, in the past, shown great support for local business and the impact on the people in this area. They do have a tendency toward conservative ' Don't rock the boat.' politics, and are definately pro-Amway. This article is at least un-biased, and at best, novel in it's approach to describing what you do here and how Procter-Gamble is the latest opponent of the Amway legal teams.Heck, the Press even posted your web site URL.

I have been to several Amway recruitment get-togethers over the years, but refused to swallow the ' Circle of Friends' speeches and all the guff about how anyone who dedicates a few hours weekly to Amway, can work up the ladder ( Pyramid), adding multi-layers of 'Friends' until eventually reaching the life of ease. The last of these meetings was conducted by a husband-wife duo who were Double-Diamonds in the organization. I have heard similar 'pitches' from magazine salesmen, and telephone solicitors and did'nt fall for them either. I find it hard to beleive that Amway, with the relatively high start up costs, with the philosophy that all the work for these double-diamonds was being done by regular people like you and I yet all the responsibility for sales, delivery, maintaining records, setting up 'cold' calls, plus the full thrust of Amways Legal Branch to deal with in case of any errors: I find it difficult to believe that any reasonable person would become a part of this scheme. It is a shame that there are so many gullible people out there who do.

Hey, keep up the faith. I believe that the American public will someday wise up and toss Amway out the collective door. The truly sad thing about all this is that so many hard-working, and normally responsible people, will lose further billions and billions of dollars to the 'boys' at Amway before this ever happens.

Thank you for listening.

Hi, I am a Amway distrib. and i see here, sucking out money, Amway seems to be draining her financially. I just don't understand...We are all free to do what we want, we do NOT have to buy things or sell things if we don't wont to !!!If someone has financial problems, it was done by himself not Amway !! They ask you to buy Books, tapes and come to functions....They don't say you have to come !!! Greetings !!

I am in Amway but haven't been active for years. I haven't encountered any coercive force to buy nor been cold shouldered by those far more involved. Most people I associate with don't even know that I am in Amway. I can tell that you are really bitter and I don't know your previous experiences in life. I find it unfortunate that you are so obsessed with what you perceive concerning Amway. I pray that you can find it in your heart to move on. Have a great day..........

Dear Obviously Bad Experience with Amway Person,

I was very intrigued at the "well-informed" information you had on your web-site. It makes me believe more and more in internet information even as we speak. I'm sorry that you seem to have such an incredibly bad experience with Amway in the past. I guess it's like the civil war. There is still the fight going on today, even though it was not us today who were actually involved. It seems as though giving a good, American-based company a bad name is poor use of time. Maybe that is why you didn't succeed at the business. To be successful, you have to work hard. You have to help people realize what they can't get from a regular job, and you do have to have training, which does involve tools, which you are to use, and not just as decorations. If you think you can get involved in an independent business without laying out some money first, as an investment, then you are a lottery person. Personal businesses take time, effort, and money, and a person who is unwilling to give any of these to have a successful business is not informed in this area at all. It seems sad today that people want something for nothing. I guess it is a mirror of how society has gotten. I hope that you won't be kicking yourself for saying these things and wished you had been involved when Amway kicks off a re-lauching in Sept. 99 on the internet, taking the internet and consumers by surprise. It will be the biggest and best thing you could get involved in. Again, I am sorry of your thoughts about this business and that you have probably met some shady distributors in the past (or maybe you were one). Being rated number one in many business categories seems to rank higher than someone who has too much time to know what to do with. Sad for your future if you think this way, and aware that I will be able to afford things I couldn't with a teaching certificate--hope you have your own dreams.

I found your site very interesting. I was recruited into Amway by a group not far "Downline" from *, who you know is directly sponsored by Dexter Yeager. I should say that the reason I was interested in the thing was that I had read a book on them years ago and thought the idea of having access to sell anything from soap to cars was cool. As you know of course, these people are not interested in selling anything but the "tools". The funniest thing is that they tried to take my "Amway business Handbook" when I signed up. I did not allow that to happen. That was the best thing I did in having signed up in Amway. Everytime they did anything counter to what was in the rule book, I knew what was going on, and knew not to be intimidated.

Very quickly it got to the crossroad where I got tired of their stonewalling, and refusal to service my retail sales. At the same time, they were fed up with my refusal to get on the 3 tapes of the week, book of the month, and the new thing, the Video of the month. I informed them that I was exercising my right to "divorce" my sponsors, and change lines. The stonewalled that for as long as they could, but found out I was serious, and signed all paperwork finally, and I was set free.

My new sponsors stock products, let me make my retail sales, and don't bug me about buying tools and attending rallies and such. While I was temporarily disabled and unable to work my 9 to 5 job for an extended time, my sales of Amway and other products I have distributorships in allowed me to make an income from my bed. No, I don't expect that I will ever become a Direct, let alone a Diamond, but you have shown me that I am probably making more in my retailing than the average active Amway person is making period.

My thing was I needed to see where every dollar I spent would directly correlate to a return of at least $1.25, needless to say, I was not what they wanted in their group.

Thanks for clarifying what I had figured for a long time. Namely, that these people were not making the bulk of their money on what I was, and that their motives were not my best interests.

Dear Mr. Schwartz:

I just discovered your site this morning and I wanted to thank you for putting this together. A few years ago, I was approached by several people whom I thought were just being friendly but turned out were "Amway" fiends. I felt betrayed and hurt, because, I already had a job and was looking to meet people and not join some fanatical cult. I have since grown to distrust strangers who seem "unusually" friendly to me. People generally don't act that friendly towards another person unless they want something.

I am glad to see that I am not only the only one out there with "anti-Amway" sentiments.

Keep up the good work!

Great site, I have family in the business and it is bas news. Keep up the good work.

If I missed it, what exactly is it you do Mr Schwartz? I certainly think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and perhaps you may even speak of fact. I for fact do not know whether you are or aren't posting factual documents. Once I gave a presentation on logic in a collage course I took and when I gave a deduction to the disbelief in Christ which logically made sence, I was emotionally stricken by a man many years my elder. Much to my suprise, the man became very anger with me and demanded that I "Do not take that hope away from him". I was as if Christ himself was sending a message to me to think carefully how I would impact the lives of others. Now I do not watch much TV and even avoid directionless action here on the Internet, but I did notice much of your retoric to follow suite to the 5:00 news.

I do pity your experience with Amway and am thankful I have yet to meet someone with such negative vengence as yourself. As for me, sure I''ve spent some money educating myself and purchased some tools, Amway tools. And I've even made a few dollars and taken a few trips. But what I received that I never say in any plan was the fullment I was missing. I fell in love with my wife again, I learned how to communicate, I learned how to be compassionate to my fellow man, the common man, I learned to let the Lord back into my life. I found that when success princples are applied to a current place of employment, that the results can be stagering and extremely rewarding, finacially.

I have heard horror stories for years about "Scamway". I"m glad I never got involved back in those days, even if those days weren't so long ago. I must say it was refreshing to not read anything about my current organization. You see, I see Amway as another company. A company that manufactures, markets, and distributes products. And they owe me and you nothing.

I would like to thank you for providing facts and opinions that are so secretly kept by Amway. My girlfriend has been involved in Amway for several months now and I feel every meeting, every conversation with some members of her up line push us a little further apart. There is very little room for negotiation anymore with her as she feels to look at Amway realisticly is to put herself down. I am labled as a non-dreamer by her colegues, who feel if your not in Amway your headed nowhere happy or not. Having experience with these types of people yourself I was hoping you might have ideas or information that I can use to help open her eyes to what this warping of the mind is doing to her. I love her and want to spend my life with her, but I fear in time the terrible gread of this orginization may destroy our bind together. Please E-mail me if you think you can help.

I just would like to say that I strongly disagree with your attempt to slander the good name of Amway! I was wondering if you go after businesses like McDonalds who require their participants to put up hundereds of thousands of dollars before they even get anything out of it? I doubt it! From what I have read it seems like most people who complain about Amway are the ones who don't make any money at it, and then say "it's not my fault." Yet they sit on their couch watching TV and don't try to do anything. The spend more time shaving a week than they do working Amway. I do agree that that some people take and talk nothing but Amway and that is wrong and unhealthy! My experience is shows the contrary. But you will have wackos in all things!!

Dear Mr. Schwartz, How are you doing? Thank you for your site. It will be a good source of information about the Amway business. Please feel free to open the file attached.

You have a very good sight here let me see what your proposing is that people go to school for 4, 5, or 8 years or so, get a good job and make money for some man other than themselves. I'm living that dream right now it sucks. I go in every morning to my computer in my little part of work and I have a great boss don't get me wrong but why should i trust my future in the fact that my job will be their 45 years from now so i can retire at 70 with the $500 of social security that the government might have waiting on me and this is what this sight is really saying. All through my life people have said go to school to get a good job. That's crap. I don't make anymore money when you figure it by the hour than anybody on the local assembly line and I'm not getting any closer to the top. To make the money we need to pay the bills my wife and i stress ourselves out 50 hours a week at dead in jobs where we will never get ahead. You can not tell me that people don't need a dream. I don't believe your upline ignored you i believe they said that you was getting the chance to have your own business. There are no get rich quick schemes that work. You have to put time and effort in anything you want to do. If you don't have the time and money or a dream of your own. Please don't destroy somebody else's dream because you failed at yours.

I am not involved with Amway, although I have heard the pitch several times. A current distributor (and former friend) called me last night inviting me to a meeting. Basically - it sounded like Amway was going online with their own mall, it was a new distribution channel and this was a ground floor opportunity.

I could not tell if she was merely hyped up from the meeting she was returning from or if she was worried about what I have long wondered - that the internet may present a threat to her livlihood.

I browsed your site (first time I had been there) and could not find anything about this. Have you heard of Amway and the internet? I am not interested in Amway in the least, just curious if the internet may bring down a house of cards.

For what it's worth, Amway has allowed me to be a full time dad. I saw the business at 21 years old. I thought it was going to be easy... It wasn't. But it was easier than working for someone else the rest of my life. The business isn't perfect, simply because people are not perfect. But SHOW ME A BETTER OPPORTUNITY anywhere.

I could have made a lot of money in medicine. I could have even taken over my fathers conventional business, but I never would have had the time to really enjoy it. As directs in the business, we are not rich. I do, however earn more than most people my age. My twin boys have never seen me leave to go to a job. My wife and I spend time together helping others build their future. Usually this time is spent after the kids are in bed.

Mr. Swartz, I have no desire to convince you of the value in the Amway opportunity, I'm not sure we want to associate with you. I just hope you would be kind enough to include this in your response pages. It may help someone who just had their dream stolen by one who couldn't achieve his own.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I will write you of our disgusting experience of our 3 1/2 years affiliated with Brad Duncan and WWDB. Please direct me to the person or group that will give me very specific advice and the legalities of tool returns. I have read much of your site and have printed over 1000 pages to keep on file. I wish we could donate moneys to support this site, it has saved numerous people despite what some pathetic amway people may think! If this site was no threat, amway and other "key individuals" wouldn't have gone to the extent they have to try to shut it down! Obviously some entity is supporting this site and all the power to them! Please help me in my request, I couldn't imagine how busy you must be, but please take the time to give me a response. Very, Very Thankful for your individual efforts and also to the entity for their support!

CONTINUE TO KICK BUTT!

SUPPORTING YOUR CAUSE!

Sidney,

I'm sure Mike Mohr genuinely feels sorry for poor, naive you to be so misused by evil conglomerate P&G. I bet you never even realized they were controlling your website all along. Perhaps P&G cast some satanic type of spell upon you so you would not recognize that you were just their puppet and they were actually pulling the strings. Truly diabolical.

But seriously, I can't believe Amway filed suit against P&G claiming that P&G is behind your website. The websites and P&G's suit must be doing some real damage for Amway to go to this extreme.

Isn't there such a thing as sanctions for frivolous lawsuits?

Look man, your reports on Amway being a "scam, cult, ect." are all out dated (many by about 13 years!). You are not required to buy tools in this company. We want a distributor to have motivation because people like you can tend to bring them down and make them think they can't have their dreams. We encourage reading to broaden your mind and learn. You are not required to buy these books, you can check them out of the library if you want. The reason why this buisness doesn't work for the majority of people is because most distributors quit before they get only 5 no's. They hear misinformation like what you preach and get discouraged. Do you think the FTC would let a scam go on for so long? Do you think that huge companies such as hersheys, MCI, Sony would be involved in this if it were a scam? Get a clue, then get informed.

Sidney,

Thank You for publishing your site on the Web, I was approached last night. With the doubts I had to start with and the information I've read on your site, I will not be going ahead.

Again thank you.

Recently my best friend for many years was layed off from a local jet manufacturing company in Seattle, WA. Thank goodness he was able to find a job soon, but since then I have become very concerened with our friendship. First of all, he is not making as much as he used to. I've noticed this has affected him because he's not able to pay his bills. The stress from the financial challenge is starting to ruin his marriage and I know his wife is not very happy. Secondly, he has to work a graveyard shift. And he's sleeping while everbody else is working. I can't believe he uses that as an excuse for not spending time with me. Furthermore, he used that as an excuse to not attend my 4 year old sons birthday party. They must be brainwashing him at his new job. Because he's always attended my sons birthday parties. I asked him if he would take the day off and he told me he would get fired. I think money is more important to him than my son. He is always depressed because he's not getting paid what he thinks he's worth. But he still believes that the company is going to give him a raise someday. How can I reach him? He must be told he's doing the wrong thing. His company is controlling him. They tell him when to get up, they tell him when he has to be at work, they tell him when he can have a break and they tell him when he can go home. They even tell him he has to wait a year before he gets a vacation. I don't want to see him get a divorce. And how dare he say going to work was more important than going to my sons birthday party. Thank you for allowing me to express my concerns. These cult like activities scare me. I sure hope he doesn't make things worse bu getting in Amway.

Sincerely, IceSkater P.S. He spent over $2,400.00 on tools for his position and now he's attending a seminar in Los Angeles for four days. It was required or he would lose his job. Please pray for him because it's ruining his family. I believe that the company he works for makes more money off the work he does than they pay him! All he ever talks about is work, work, work, how broke he is, and he hates working graveyard. He sent my son $5.00 for a birthday gift. (what a joke). He'll probably find another job and start the vicious cycle all over again.

Hi: I have been an Amway distributor in Canada for about two years. I can't beleive the way you slam a company which is only a supplier of goods and services. The training system which you refer to has "no" connection with Amway what so ever. I am in Dexter Yagers line of sponsorship and proud of the completely optional training sytem which his family has put together to help people learn how to create wealth or even just grow as a person. Your lack of knowledge of the system surprises me. The great thing about the Amway business is that it is a level playing field in which anyone can excell if they are willing to (learn,do,and teach). This has been the greatest - most positive experience of my life.

Sydney:

I read an article in The Grand Rapids Press (MI) and decided to check out your site. I haven't yet read everything you offer, but enough to know I've found a kindred soul.

Here are a couple of things you may not have known about AMWAY, Grand Rapids and Ada, MI and the involvement of the State of Michigan through the intercession of Gov. John Engler. Engler dimantled Michigan's labor department and created the Jobs Commission to handle the department's work. He then ordered the Jobs Commission to contribute over a half'-million of taxpayer dollars to AMWAY for that company to use to pay for its indoctrination course for workers. Engler's rationale was that the AMWAY philosophy and its Protestant work ethic are good things for employees to learn. At the same time, Engler dismantled what had been the state's unemployment service and let his minions farm out the work to preferred firms (big contributors to the Republican Party), which charge a fee for helping the unemployed find work. He also enacted new rules that make it harder for the unemployed to receive benefits when they're laid off.

AMWAY founders Richard DeVos and Jay Van Andel are billionaire arch-conservatives who bankroll groups that preach creationism and public funding of private and parochial schools. Recently, Van Andel gave $20,000,000 to a Grand Rapids religious college(tax deductible, of course) and both the founders have institutions and buildings around Grand Rapids named for them.

Governor Engler gutted the Michigan Occupational Safety and Health Administration (MIOSHA) and issued new orders to the remaining staff to go easy on corporate violations of safety and health standards, with AMWAY taken off the list of egregious violators. AMWAY has for years polluted the Grand River and the soil in Ada, MI, and now has what was once one of the country's best EPA's off its back.

Not everyone in this area of Michigan is pleased with AMWAY. Workers in its plants are exploited while Engler's cronies get tax dollars for hiring "disadvantaged" workers. The list of valid complaints about AMWAY would fill several books.

If you wish further information or verification please contact me. Remember: illigitimi non carborundum! (Don't let the bastards wear you down).

hi mr. schwartz, i recently signed up to be an amway distributor, trusting what my sponsor told me about the business. this man was in a residency program with me a number of years ago and i trusted him implicitly. he could also point to a number of other physicians who were and are actively pursuing the a business. your information has been an eye-opener to me and has led me to question my further participation. i had already concluded that the system of books, tapes and seminars was a rip so i haven't bought into that. the business plan seemed sound to me until i read the detailed price comparisons and the consumer reports information, which undermined the substance of amway's business claims. i feel a little foolish not having found this web site before i committed myself to the business, but i've only been in about a month and haven't exposed more than one or two of my friends to the plan presentation. i'm trying to examine the business more objectively now and am having a hard time seeing why i thought it was such a good idea to join. thanks again.

hey man,

just got back from my first 'meeting'..decided to investigate....NOOO SHITT...fuckin'cult needs an antichrist superstar for thier god 'money'...i'm not kidd'in about just gettin'back from one of these functions either(2 hours ago)..the dude that talked to me did the same fuckin' shit as some of the things i read. daaammnn i feel like a mark...(sucker)...i didn't buy nuthin' and got the fuck outa dodge when it was over..i hope that asshole calls me back..i'm gonna take him and that shit OUT.(goin' public with this shit)

X-From_: DiamondDuke@worldnet.att.net Thu Nov 19 01:32:25 1998 Delivered-To: schwartz@teleport.com
From: "James Wethington" <DiamondDuke@worldnet.att.net> To: <schwartz@teleport.com>
Subject:
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:33:10 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Dear Sydney So how does it feel to be ranked up with Rushdie ? and How do you feel about the FBI investigating you ? Seems that you are turning up on the web in sites where the bounties are high and the takers are many . What are you doing about this ? James Wethington

Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:53:15 +0000
From: "James Wethington"
To: "Sidney Schwartz"
Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:58:06 -0500
Message-ID: <01be13e6$29350920$1e1f2299@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;

It seems that you have stepped on many peoples toes and some rather large organizations . Most won't say anything they prove with action over words . All I know is that there are two people in this world I would not want to be you and Salmon Rushdie . So be careful out there with who you associate and talk to , I believe in the first amendment and back you up on that but others are not so logical and their plans are coming together rapidly to make people accountable for their words on the net .

X-From_: DiamondDuke@worldnet.att.net
Fri Nov 20 16:12:06 1998 Delivered-To: schwartz@teleport.com
From: "James Wethington" <DiamondDuke@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Sidney Schwartz" <schwartz@teleport.com>
Subject: Re:
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:12:35 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

remember this talk is cheap as you say so is info on the web because it is just talk , so with your permission and the email you sent me being public domain I will print your response in 5 national newspapers and a site on the net dedicated to making people accountable for the words they put on the net .

Oh by the way thanks .

James Wethington Esq.

X-From_: DiamondDuke@worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 22 14:05:01 1998
Delivered-To: schwartz@teleport.com
From: "James Wethington" <DiamondDuke@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Sidney Schwartz" <schwartz@teleport.com>
Subject: Re:
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:09:03 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

You know Sid , you responding to all my email proves that you are nothing more than a recluse who spends his days on a computer figuring that since he has a web site he will be bigger than the companies he dislikes . Remember this my friend this is the United States and you are free because a gasbag like myself and my father and his father before and his father before served in the military to protect your freedoms . So a thank you is not needed from a commie bastard like you

[While Joe Patriot here is waving the flag and labeling those who don't like Amway "commies," Amway is forcing its distributors, as a matter of policy, to give up important constitutional rights.]

Here is a short glossary of terms to help people better understand the Amway Motivational Organizations:

BSM --- Bastards Scroundling Money. SOT --- Sadly Omitted Truths. DBR --- Diamond Blasphemous Racketeering.

And here are the explanation of what certain words mean:

DIAMOND --- A sinister but over-friendly creature with a license to separate people from their hard earned cash under the pretense of helping them develop a multi-million dollar home-based business.

OPEN MEETING --- A waste of 3 hours and 4 dollars to hear the same B.S. over and over again from people who have been brainwashed.

RALLY --- A mass gathering aimed to convert non-believers into loyal sheep and materialistic fanatics.

AUTOMATIC PRODUCT REPLENISHMENT --- Overpriced home delivery service of products to divert you from your local Wal-Mart where you can get stuff for a lot less.

DREAM --- The "loophole" to have you ignore the real issue of the "Tools Scam" and make you emotional not rational about Amway (try that with Dr. Laura. She'll tell you to get a grip!)

SATURATION --- Ignoring that although most people are not in Amway, most have heard about it and want nothing to do with it.

---- Former Direct from Alberta, Canada.

I have been a proud member of an Amway family for 25 years now. My grandfather was one of the founders. I have A LOT of admiration for the hard work he and other like minded men have but into my future and the future of my kids and their kids and so on... While I respect your opinion and the opinions of others like you, please understand my grandfather and his friends took a dream and created a wonderful, successful, debt free business opportunity that ANYONE can succeed in. While not everyone chooses to work hard enough to do it, many have. Amway is NOT about money, money, money. I have learned from my grandfather and father that there is no such thing as instant gratification, only delayed gratification. You only get what you work for. I am newly married and now working on my own business. I may have been born with what some call a silver spoon in my mouth, but now if i want that for my children, I must work for it. Papa gave me knowledge and a foundation, what I do with it is up to me. From what I have read and heard, those who think it is a cult, scam, or whatever other negative simply did not what to work. Nothing is free. The society as a whole would like to make people think so. I love my life. I get to go on mission trips and help build houses, teach young children to read, and show my love for God and my family and my country. I get to give back some of what has been given to me. I am blessed because my grandfather Joe Victor had a dream. My father Ron Victor kept it going and passed it to me - Jennifer-helyne Victor. I love my life. Many other kids of Amway distributers do too. My guess is that those who strongly dislike us and our families chosen field of employment wish they had the love for others and life we do. It hasn't been brainwashed in - we have been blessed. In Christ, Jennifer-helyne Victor-Miller

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