Return-Path: Received: from ladon.resdoc.cs.cmu.edu by K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU id aa09015; 21 Feb 92 12:39:03 EST Received: from ladon.resdoc.cs.cmu.edu by LADON.RESDOC.CS.CMU.EDU id aa01345; 21 Feb 92 12:38:19 EST To: bovik@K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: camcorders Date: Fri, 21 Feb 92 12:38:12 EST Message-ID: <1342.698693892@LADON.RESDOC.CS.CMU.EDU> From: Ellen_Douglas@LADON.RESDOC.CS.CMU.EDU Reply #1: Here are a few things you should know about buying a camcorder: There are two kinds of 8mm camcordorers. Standard 8mm and Hi8. Hi8 offers superior resolution, on par with VHS-C. Many salesmen in stores in Pittsburgh don't even know about Hi8 yet. Obviously Hi8 is a little more expensive. If you are buying a Sony, you should know that Ricoh, Nikon, and Yashika sell the exact same cameras, manufactured by Sony, often with a better price or warranty. There is absolutely no difference among the equivalent cameras aside from the silk-screening. I ended up paying an extra $50 to get the Sony only because they have a service center in the Pittsburgh area; the others don't. You can get a price about 15-25% lower by ordering mail order than you can get in Pittsburgh. I can send you a copy of the monthly compilation of mail order houses and buyer ratings that is compiled by some guy on rec.video if you want to look into mail order. Check out rec.video if you have time. I read that newsgroup for about a month before buying and learned just about everything I know about camcorders from the newsgroup. Make sure you buy from a manufacturer-authorized dealer, or you may find it very difficult to get warranty repairs. An international warranty is a bug, not a feature. I bought a Sony TR-81, Hi8 camcorder. It is the smallest Hi8 available, and I think it is an awesome piece of equipment. I bought it mail order from Camera World of Oregon. I am very pleased with their service. Silo advertises this camera, FotoShop in Squirrel Hill has the Nikon equivalent, Ralph's Discount City has the Sony. If you decide to go with Hi8, and want more features than the Sony TR81 offers, check out their CCD-V601, 701, and 801. Reply #2: we have a Sony F-55 and are very happy with it, although if I were to buy it again I would probably get the cheaper F-33 since it turns out that we don't use the extra capabilities of the F-55. The important part, though is that the quality of the picture is very good even with pretty low light. We bought it from Citibank's shopping club for about $100 less than Silo's price (and no sales tax). I'm sure that there are cheaper mail-order places, but since this was backed by Citibank we felt better about it. As a matter of fact the first camera that we got was defective, we sent it back and they sent us a new one without any hassle. The drawback of course is that it takes a while (4-6 weeks) to get it. I'll send you more information about this club if you are interested (you don't need to have a Citibank credit card to become a member, and the membership is $39/year refundable at the end of the first year if you don't think it's worth it). Reply #3: Hi. I live in Japan (frontlines of the camcorder wars), and thought I'd pass along some thoughts. Just a preliminary note on [S-]VHS[-C] on the chance you're not familiar with them: VHS is the standard "large" video tape. It was the winner over Sony's beta tape during the old tape wars. VHS-C (VHS-Compact) is the same physical tape and format as VHS, but in a much smaller cartridge. To play a VHS-C tape on a regular VCR, one needs only an adaptor that mechanically causes the smaller cartridge to appear as a larger one. This is nothing like the old cassette-tape -> 8-track tape adaptors. The S- (Super) prefix indicates a much higher quality of recording (to match some future high-definition TV [HDTV]). The physcial tape is the same, but the recording format is different. An S-VHS or S-VHS-C tape can't be played on a non-S-VHS player. The longest [S-]VHS-C tapes are now 30/90 minutes in length (with VHS, you can record "regular" or "extended", where the extended packs more onto the tape, but is susposed to be of lower quality. I always use maximum extended 'cause I can't tell the differenc). I think 8mm can go quite a bit longer than this. I own a somewhat old S-VHS-C system [a Sharp.. now about 1.5x larger than "average" models] which I like. I personally like VHS-C over 8mm because I can play the tapes on regular VCRs [if I don't record in S- mode, which I don't just because of this]. If that's not an issue for you, then the 8mm longer recording time would most likely come into play to make 8mm the choice. Apparently, S-VHS[-C] is of somewhat higher quality than 8mm, but they're both so far above what our TVs can do now that it doesn't matter. I don't know if you can get S-VHS VCR in The States, but they're common in Japan. As Carl Sagon might say, there are BILLIONS and BILLIONS of camcorder options these days. Some notable ones: + How high can one zoom, and how (optical zoom vs. digital zoom) + color/bw viewfinder + various remote controls + "neato" special video effects features... subtitling with arbitrary messages. mirrored effects. image superimposion. image freeze. all kinds of digital effects. etc. etc. etc. For me, the zoom is important... lots of neato things don't seem as important 'cause I'd most likely never learn to use them (-: I was shopping in Japan two weeks ago for a camcorder (actually, shopping for camcorder info for a friend here that wants to buy). The highest zoom I saw on an 8mm system was Sony's 705 which went to 8-times. Most 8mm systems were either 6x or 8x max. The highest VHS-C zoom I saw was 16x on a Panasonic. The reason I think is because of one feature that Panasonic (which only makes VHS-C systems) has that (for me) makes it far superior to all other systems: When zooming up (even a modest amount) and trying to hold an image, it's *very* hard to hold the camera still. Even with a tripod (unless very heavy), there's always some shake, and this translates to very noticable (and annoying) movement during playback. Panasonic has something that when turned on, digitally "unshakes" the image to hold it tight, crisp, and clean. I've played with this in the stores... zooming up and trying to hold the image steady, then turning the thing on. It's *truely* amazing. In Japan, to claim to use fuzzy logic in a product is a big selling point, and they claim that this is done using fuzzy logic. Don't know if they do or not, but the thing really works, and for this reason I'll never by a camcorder that doesn't have this. I'm not sure, but other VHS-C systems might have this as well... I don't quite remember. Panasonic is the creator of VHS-C, and they want to come out ahead of Sony again during the compact-tape wars, so they may very well let other VHS-C companies use this technology. They might lose sales to other companies, but they stand to win much more if VHS-C eventually wins over 8mm. I remember seeing an add in the paper over there about a new Hitatchi system (Hitatchi makes both VHS-C and 8mm camcorders) that had 128x zoom. It wasn't in the stores yet, though. Anyway, there's the facts and opinions. To me, the "hold tight" feature is a big big plus, and the ability to play the tapes on regular VCRs is also big. The next camcorder I get (no time soon, though, as my current one isn't really that old.... hey, wanna' buy a slightly-used camcorder) will have both these features. I just wish the VHS-C tapes had longer recording times, although I've haven't run into a problem with the hour-and-a-half per-tape max yet... Reply #4: Hi , I have tried VHS, VHS-c and 8mm. I like 8mm better because of size as well as picture quality. Most of the lest expensive High resolution (e.g. 490,000 pixels) are 8mm. My father has a Nikon 8mm that I like very much. This obviously doesn't give you any new information. But I would like to say that for events type video taping your arm and extra baggage will thank you for buying a camera that is not much bigger than a walkman! Also, I have a late edition of Video Magazine, which has many warehouse adds, with excellent prices. But I don't think many of them offer much service or a protection plan and stuff. Also, steer away from cameras that require a "little black box" to play back on your t.v. Such units are a real pain. Make sure the camera has all the outputs right on the camera so that you can plug the camera directly into the t.v. These are just minor things, but have proven to become a big pain. Reply #5 VHS-c gives you 20 minutes on a cassette you can adapt into your VHS player. 8mm gives you 2 hours on an audio cassette sized tape. Most 8mm players can be used as decks as well. I've found this to work very well. Best brand is, of course Sony (consumer reports has a strange bias against Sony). To buy in town, visit Ralph's Discount City downtown. There are at least 3 different Sony extremely small models. Other brand's of 8mm camcorder seem to use the same internals so are probably equally as good with alternate features. Biggest feature difference is type of auto-focus. Reply #6 I have an 8mm and highly recommend that format, mainly for convenience. You can always dub from originals to a vhs VCR if you want to send a video to mom and dad. As for where to buy, New York and PA have an agreement whereby big mail order purchases get reported to PA and PA bills you for the sales tax. (PA law says you have to mail in sales tax no matter where you buy.) Reply #6 I bought a VHS camcorder. I like to edit down raw tapes when I jave the time, and the two-step procedure I use (assemble-edit, then mix sound) requires two VHS VCRs unless you want to suffer the degradation of an additional copying step (VHS to 8mm). Also, a second VHS deck can be used for copying VHS tapes. If you don't care much about either of these activities, then I would definitely buy an 8mm camcorder. The miniature camcorders are terribly cool, in my opinion. Reply #7: Sony CCD-TR6 is a good option. It costs $800. Reply #8: Photographic Equipment/Video Mail Order Company Survey Posting : October 10, 1991 I. Introduction POSTING, REQUESTS: I get many requests for a copy of the mailing. I try to respond, but usually what happens is that the mailer bounces back my mail. TIMELINESS OF ORDERS: I'm working on revising the survey so we can get some sense of how a company might change over time. Thus, if your experiences are not recent (past couple months), please give a time so I can add it to the survey at the appropriate date. CATEGORIZATION: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE categorize your experience as one of no problems, minor hassles, major hassles or no problems. I can make inferences, but some distinctions are subtle and need to be made by the person who had the experience. I hate to be hard-nose about this, but I've gotten manys inputs lately that are borderline & have had to make a guess. If you don't classify it as one of the above, then I may "drop your input in ye ole bit bucket". If you're having trouble deciding, at least give me a hint and what might lean you which way. Thanks, Doug. NAMES: Please be careful when naming a place. For example, if "Del's Camera" different from "Del's Photo"? What about "Del's"? I don't know all places and sometimes may split places up when they are actually one. Try using the name as it appears in ads. Here is the latest version of the Photographic Equipment/Video Mail Order Survey. The article consists of 5 sections: I. Introduction - this section II. Explanation of the Chart III. Chart summarizing the ordering experiences IV. Tips for shopping from mail order firms V. The experiences received since the last posting POSTING: I post this survey around the first of each month to rec.photo and rec.video. I've found that posting the survey is a good stimulus to people to send in their input. I believe that once a month is frequent enough. UPDATES/NEW EXPERIENCES/INPUT: If you have new experiences to report, and updates to the list (phone #'s) or have other input or questions on the survey, please e-mail them to me at att!druhi!blondin. If you have trouble e-mailing me, then you can post to rec.photo and, if appropriately marked in the subject line, I will pull them off. Note: that I do NOT read rec.video. [My phone number and US Mail addresses are also listed below.] When sending an experience, please make it clear which of the 4 categories it falls into. RATINGS BY MAGAZINES: Some magazines have added ratings and disclaimers to assure the reader that ordering from those companies will be trouble-free (e.g., Popular Photography's "Check Rating"). While the magazines may be honest in their concern for the consumer (and I would encourage you to inform magazines if you have problems with "certified" companies), you should also realize that the magazines depend on the companies for ad revenue. Some readers of this survey have also noted that some "certified" companies have repeatedly been low-rated by this survey. SURVEYS IN GENERAL: The consumer must take all input (magazine ratings, this survey, other surveys, friend's advice, ...) and put whatever faith in them that they will. Companies may change over time (both for better and worse), and different people/magazines may have different standards. DISCLAIMER: The figures presented here represent neither an endorsement or a condemnation of any particular company. Rather, this table is simply a compilation of experiences sent in by various netnews readers. Your actual ordering experience may differ, and companies may change over time. KEEPER of the SURVEY: Douglas Blondin 11900 N. Pecos St. att!druhi!blondin Denver, Colorado 80234 (303) 538-4874 II. Explanation of the Chart Name: Name of the mail order company. Last Info Date: This is the date that I last received an "experience" on that particular company. I hope it helps users of this chart by giving some timeframe to the experiences. In addition, Numbers in []'s: After a number for a given column, you may see a number in []'s. That is the number of responses received in that column for that company since the last posting. [NOTE: this replaces the old asterik (*) that just marked the last response] Phone Number: Up to 2 phone numbers are displayed: the 800 number (may not apply to instate orders) and the general toll information/order number. Consult the ads for other phone numbers (I have limited space to list numbers). Experiences: The numerical summary of experiences reported by readers. They are split into 4 categories: No problems: Got what you ordered, in reasonable time, at expected price, no unpleasant surprises. Minor hassles: Minor delays, unpleasant saleperson, hard to get through to toll free line; probably not enough to keep you from ordering from them again. Major hassles: Major problems occurred, but you were satisfied enough with with the way they were resolved that you might consider ordering from them again when you cool off. Avoid: Major problems occurred that either were not satisfactorily corrected or that you feel were significant enough to begin with that you wouldn't consider ordering from them again under any circumstances. III. Chart summarizing the ordering experiences | Last | | Experience was: | Name of Mail | Info | Phone | NO | Minor | Major | | Order Company | Date | Number | problems | hassles | hassles | Avoid | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-221-7774 | | | | | 47th Street | 7/18/91| 212-398-1410 | 26 | 9 | 6 | 2 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-221-9521 | | | | | AAA | 5/14/91| 212-242-5800 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-227-0400 | | | | | Abe's (Maine) |12/26/90| 718-645-0900 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 2 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-223-2500 | | | | | Adorama | 9/10/91| 212-741-0052 | 69 [1] | 17 [1]| 4 | 2 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Aero-Comm | | | | | | | Photo Supply | 4/ 2/91| | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ A/V | | | | | | | Distributors | 4/ 3/91| 713-486-8866 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-221-5662 | | | | | B&H | 9/ 9/91| 212-807-7474 | 108 [4] | 22 | 7 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | | | | | | Battery Park | 8/ 4/88| | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1* | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Beache's | | | | | | | of Maine | 2/14/91| | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-223-1970 | | | | | Bi-Rite | 6/ 7/89| 212-685-2130 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Brooklyn Camera| | | | | | | Exchange | 6/26/91| | 7 | 0 | 0 | 1 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-847-4039 | | | | | Brothers | 5/ 2/89| 212-695-4158 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | | | | | | Calumet | 8/10/91| 800-CAL-UMET | 27 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | 800-221-2253 | | | | | Cambridge | 9/17/91| 212-675-8600 | 2 | 1 [1]| 4 | 9 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Camcorder | | 800-338-4290 | | | | | Land (Texas) |11/ 8/90| | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Camera One | | | | | | | Sarasota, FL | 4/ 2/91| | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Camera Sound of| | 800-477-0022 | | | | | Pennsylvania | 3/25/91| 800-477-1003 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Camera World of| | | | | | | Charlotte, NC | 7/24/89| | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Camera World | | 800-222-1557 | | | | | of Oregon |10/ 7/91| 503-227-6008 | 82 [8] | 12 [1]| 3 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ | | | | | | | Cameta's | 7/ 1/91| | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | ------------------------+--------------+----------+---------+---------+--------+ Central Camera | Reply #9: Hi, Just a quick note. I have a no-hassles experience to report. I ordered a Nikon 8008s with 35-70 lens from B&H. Good price, and no problems. The survey was a big help. Doug, Many, many thanks for all the effort you put into maintaining the mail order survey. Based on what I found in the most recent copy I kept, I recently (4 weeks ago) placed an order with B&H. My results were "No Problems". The phone critter with whom I placed the order was courteous by New York standards and acceptable by mine. He made no attempt to sell me more than what I asked for. I ordered a zoom lens on Friday, received it on the following Monday by paying for UPS 2nd day air delivery. The price I was quoted agreed with the price in their ad and with the price on the invoice that arrived with the lens. There were no surprise charges. Foolishly, I forgot to ask was the lens was in stock, but as the delivery date indicates, it was. So, hopefully, after being a "user" of your wonderful survey, I have "given something back", so to speak, by having provided you with another data point for it. Regards, Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 12:12:29 -0700 Camera World of Oregon: No Problems I made two multi-item purchases at Camera World of Oregon with no problems. The folks are very helpful and friendly. B&H: No problems The order taker was a bit abrupt but I had no problems ordering serveral items. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:05 EST Hi, First of all, let me thank you for your survey. It really helps a lot! Here's my input. on 8/27, I ordered a Canon Rebel S Kits and a Bogen tripod from B&H. On 9/5, I received my order from UPS. Everything is fine. I would like to say "NO PROBLEM" for them. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 19:53:48 mdt Douglas, In August, I ordered two filters from Calumet. They arrived in three days. NO PROBLEMS. Thanks for maintaining the survey. Paul ============================================================================== Add one "No problems" vote for Adorama. I ordered an EOS-10s, the salesperson was friendly but efficient, and the order came just as I had specified. In fact, he said I should see it in about a week-- and exactly one week later it was at my door. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 14:51:24 PDT I purchased a comcorder from Canera world of Oregon tp be shiped to a friends house, when it didn't arive on time my friend called and they told her they had not been able to reach her to verify she would accept the camera they then accepted her verification. We recieved the camera we wanted for $400 less then local prices. I would rate them a minor hassle but would definately go back to them. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Sep 91 11:41:48 EDT This is a "No Problems" vote for Camera World or Oregon. Actually they are two votes. A friend and I placed two separate but identical orders on the same day for the Sony V701 and some accessories. Very couurteous service. I recorded the conversation with his permission making the salesman answer all the relevant questions, such as availability, warranty, shipping date, etc. Product arrived when promised and I am happy with both the CWO experience and the camcorder. I have purchased mail order before but my sceptic friends are now converting over-- thanks to your survey. ============================================================================== Last Friday I called WDS in Wisconsin to ask their price on Sony CCD-TR7 camcorder. The sales man told me their price was $889. That is much higher than any other mail order places. Because I have dealed with them before and like to do business with them again; I tried to tell the sales that their price is high and if he was willing to lower their price a little bit and he would have my business. This person just hang up on me without saying anything. Very unpolite. I give one vote "minor hassle" to WDS. Julian ============================================================================== I give one vote "no problem" to Camera World of Oregon. I ordered a Sony CCD-TR7 camcorder from them last Friday (9/6) and received it yesterday (9/11). Brand new with full U.S. warrenty, everything as promised. I paid $829 for it, although some New York stores advises them lower, I would rather pay a little more for their super service. Julian Chen ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 12 Sep 91 13:17:58 -0700 Hi, The 800 phone for 'Competitive' has been disconnected. Please note. 800-544-5442 ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Sep 91 11:01:56 -0400 Daer DJ,I concerningf my experience of mail order I have madea an order without having any probleme to smile Photo ( brooklynn NY) and was actually very satisfied of it including the attitude of the sales person after calling back a few days later to ass ure that my stuff was on the way it was a Pentax A-serie 200mm f4 ( manual focus) Moreover I am very (super) satisfied with the optical quality of the item.. concerning Cambridge camera I have repeatably had minor hassle when asking for some information : the sales person wasnt really nice with me when I was asking if they had something I wanted in their actual stock. I would give as No 1 advice when ordering something by mail especially manual focus stuff, to check the stock of the compagny before giving the order, although it may cost a long distance call. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Sep 91 14:20:53 PDT I just purchased a Pioneer VSX-D1S Receiver and a Pioneer CLD1090 Laser Disk Player. They were shipped UPS at no charge and arrived on the third day. I backordered another Pioneer item and it will be shipped in a couple of weeks. These items were purchased mail order from New West in Bellingham, WA 1-800-488-8877. I would rate them as NO PROBLEMS. They were courteous, competant, and have much better shipping times to the west coast. ---- ============================================================================== This is to add a positive experience for a mail order store that I didn't see listed on the monthly survey. I bought an 8mm camcorder from: "Supreme Camera" 2123 Utica Ave. Brooklyn, NY 11234 718-692-4110 800-332-2661 Rate as "no problems" on 9/19/91 from "Peter". He was curteous and polite. I had already decided on a Sony 301 or equivalent and had called a lot of other stores. I was looking for a longer warranty so I was asking about Ricohs and others. The Ricoh 831 (same as 301) was $619 at Supreme, but Peter said the Nikon VN-860 (also equivalent) came with a 4 year warranty (parts only). It turned out to be a 5 year warranty. The Nikon was $629. Shipping was 7%, and I bought a UV filter for $10 (it was worth it not to have to run around trying to get the right size in stock) so the total came to $684. It came UPS Red Label the next day, and everything is as desired. Peter had offered to sell me some extra batteries, but the price was the same as local so I declined. Since all the local stores ask $800 for the Sony 301, I am a happy camper (or is that happy cam-er ?). There were a few slightly lower prices (including shipping) offered for the Sony, but the warranty is worth the extra $10 or so - I live near a Nikon service center in San Francisco so that is not a problem. Peter said the Nikon had better lenses, but I have heard that they are all made by Sony - still the price is fine for me either way. Your mileage may vary. Date: Tue, 1 Oct 91 20:47:57 EDT hi i wish to relate my own dealings with a mail order business. i don't quite recall what info you need nor the terms you use for your classifications, so let me just say the foll. i urchased a camera from camera world of portland, ore. and i'd recommend it. satified with purchase, timely delivery. ============================================================================== Chalk up a "no problem" for Computability. I ordered a Ricoh R105 (same as the Sony 501) for $899.95, and the salesman even threw in a 2 year extended warranty from Ricoh for free! It arrived on the day promised. They did try to steer me into buying some extras, but I declined. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 16:52:13 EDT First, let me thank you for your survey; with out it I'd have no idea which mail order companies were "reliable" and which ones to avoid, and I probably wouldn't have bought mail order. Second, chalk up another NO PROBLEMS for Camera World of Oregon. When I called for information, they were very pleasant and professional. "Norm" said the other companies that advertise prices for SONY were not "Authorized" dealers. They would either not have US warranties or never be able to get the item in stock so they would talk me into buying another item - with more markup. I did call a couple of other places, and got the impression that I could not trust them. I ended up getting the Ricoh R-86S (Sony TR7) since it had the 3 year warranty and an extra battery for $850 (the TR7 was $830). It's not the $700 as many places advertise in Video magazine (which I didn't trust), but it wasn't $1100 either - which is the cheapest I've seen it for in any stores around me, so I'm happy. I also got a nifty Tamrac case for $50 and 6 Sony tapes for $30. Shipping was $30 for 2 or 3 day FedEx (it arrived in 2 days). ============================================================================== one more 'no problem' vote for Camera World of Oregon. I ordered an SLR and a lens. I placed the order on a Wednesday, and the rep said it would arrive the following Monday. It did. I didn't get any "sorry, we are out of stock, please call us ASAP" postcard as I did with some NY stores. The rep was generally friendly, he was patient in answering some price inquiries I brought up during the order call on their 800 number. I had the exact opposite experience with Smile Photo some time ago. I call their 800 number to order a N4004, and they priced it higher than advertised in Pop. Photo. (and it only had international warranty). Their rep was very rude, did not even want to take my order until I gave him my credit card #, and refused even simple questions. I hung up on him, and he hung up on me at about the same time. Eugene ==============================================================================