Return-Path: Received: from GS13.SP.CS.CMU.EDU by K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU id aa07483; 5 May 93 14:59:58 EDT Received: from GS13.SP.CS.CMU.EDU by GS13.SP.CS.CMU.EDU id aa21752; 5 May 93 14:59:48 EDT From: Darrell.Kindred@CMU.EDU To: bovik@cs.cmu.edu Subject: Radon questions & answers Date: Wed, 05 May 93 14:59:43 -0400 Message-ID: <21749.736628383@GS13.SP.CS.CMU.EDU> Sender: Darrell_Kindred@GS13.SP.CS.CMU.EDU Wanted to make sure you got this. -D ------- Forwarded Message Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 07:34:00 EDT From: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions Newsgroups: cmu.cs.general Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Thanks to all who responded to my post concerning radon. Some of the responses I got are included below. A couple interesting things I found out: Most home agreements being signed in the area today (including ours) specify if the radon is high (above 4 picocuries per liter) then it is the sellers responsibility to remedy the situation, or the buyer has the right to back out of the deal. If the sellers don't want to fix it themselves, you can also work out a deal where you take money off the home price to cover the repair. In our case, the sellers are taking steps to reduce the level. Luckily many new homes (< 5 years old) include the necessary duct work to vent the radon, so all that should be required are the fans to remove it. - --Dean - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 11:47:03 EDT From: Hank Walker To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Reply-To: dmw@ece.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Radon Questions When Mike Reed in ECE had it done, I think he had the sellers put money in escrow, which was then used to pay for the appropriate ventilation hardware installation. Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 12:06:33 -0400 (EDT) From: James.Daniel.Morrow@cs.cmu.edu To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions Dean -- We asked our realtor about this issue, but did not get our house tested (guess we didn't want to know ;)). I guess the fix is to drill a hole through the foundation and vent the radon gas with a fan through a pipe. Her guess was that it would cost $1000+ to have this done. We did not actually talk to companies that did this -- but $1000+ is probably in the ballpark if this fix description is accurate. If I were you, I'd ask the sellers to pay half -- that seems reasonable. For what its worth... (isn't buying a house fun? :)) -- Dan Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 13:15:59 EDT From: Paul Keller To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Radon Questions Reply-To: Paul Keller I don't have a lot of information for you, but here goes: My parents are selling their house and moving to a new place. The new place has radon levels around 15, the old place around 40 (both basement readings). For both places the condition of sale is to get the radon levels down to acceptable levels - the burden of responsibility being on the seller, not the buyer. I cannot tell you about cost, as this is going on currently - I can only say that in their case it is the seller's responsibility to fix the problem. Good luck, Paul Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:11-EDT From: David.Simon@IUS4.IUS.CS.CMU.EDU To: dean.pomerleau@cs.cmu.edu Subject: radon Dean, Here is a file with some information about radon. This was in response to a post of mine after we got back the second set of results. There are references below to 2 articles, one in the April 29th '88 issue of science, and the other in the May '88 issue of Scientific American. I think that I may have both of these at home. I'll check this evening. David ******************************************************************************* * Received: from C.CS.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 14:01:23 EDT Received: ID ; Wed 11 May 88 13:58:36-EDT Date: Wed 11 May 88 13:58:35-EDT From: Herb.Simon@C.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: radon To: David.Simon@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU Message-ID: <12397510397.17.SIMON@C.CS.CMU.EDU> Status: R The test result of 2.7 whatevers is definitely nothing to worry about -- not far from the average outdoors rate of radon radiation. I have recently seen an analysis of these rates with their associated mortality estimates, but I cannot recall where at the moment. As soon as I find it, I will send you the reference and also the definition of the units. HA Simon (You might look in the last issue or two of SCIENCE, which may be where I saw it.) - ------- Received: from ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 14:48:57 EDT Date: Wed, 11 May 1988 14:40-EDT From: Hans.Moravec@ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU To: David.Simon@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Test Results Message-Id: <579379236/hpm@ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU> Status: R That's 2.7 picocuries per liter, quite low. According to an article in the April 29 Science (Radon: The Deadliest Pollutant), that will give you about a 1% increased lifetime chance of premature death (by comparison, smoking gives you a 30% chance of premature death, as would 100 picocuries per liter of Radon). I have the article if you would like to copy it. I heard Bernard Cohen, a physicist at Pitt who has been interested in nuclear risks for a long time say that the levels around Pittsburgh are lower than average. Radon tends to come from decaying Uranium found in granite, not from coal seams! -- Hans Received: from F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 15:10:35 EDT Date: Wed, 11 May 88 15:03:30 EDT From: Barak.Pearlmutter@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU To: David.Simon@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Test Results Status: R Microcurries per liter is the usual unit of measurement, and 4.0 is indeed the level above which the EPA recommends action be taken. On the other hand, if you ask me, 2.7 is high enough to warrent reading the article in this week's Science. If you smoke, you should be a little concerned; if not, its not anything to get all worried about. --Barak. Received: from CIVE.RI.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 17:06:49 EDT Date: Wed, 11 May 1988 16:42-EDT From: James.Osborn@CIVE.RI.CMU.EDU To: das@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Test Results Message-Id: <579386524/oz@CIVE.RI.CMU.EDU> In-Reply-To: David.Simon's bboard message of 11-May-88 13:33 Status: R The measurements would be of radon concentration in the ambient air [in your basement]. According to a local environmental engineer currently researching indoor air quality, the most commonly used American units for expressing radon concentration are picoCuries/liter. Curies are a unit which express radioactivity, specifically the decay rate. One Curie equals 3.7 billion decays per second; a picoCurie is one trillionth of a Curie. As to your concern, check with the EPA, PA DER or Allegheny Health Dept. as to meaning of the 4.0 "maximum". I don't believe that the EPA has set any standards for indoor air quality of any chemical, including radon. The number could be a recommended value of some sort. The important thing to remember is that EPA suggested maximum values are fairly well thought out, not just pulled from a hat. You might contact Dr. Cliff Davidson of Civil Engineering, who is fairly knowledgable on indoor air quality, to learn more. Jim Osborn (oz@cive) Received: from PROOF.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 18:58:04 EDT Received: from PROOF.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU by PROOF.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 18:57: 15 EDT To: david.simon@fas.ri.cmu.edu Subject: Radon Date: Wed, 11 May 88 18:57:13 EDT Message-ID: <22173.579394633@PROOF.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU> From: Timothy.Freeman@PROOF.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU Status: R I don't know the answers to your questions, but I do know that there is at least one book in the E&S library about radon in the home. Received: from C.CS.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 11 May 88 21:16:02 EDT Received: ID ; Wed 11 May 88 21:08:59-EDT Date: Wed 11 May 88 21:08:58-EDT From: Herb.Simon@C.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: radon again To: david.simon@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU Message-ID: <12397588747.31.SIMON@C.CS.CMU.EDU> Status: R The May 1988 Scientific American carries a long article on the radon problem. The article has some of the same statistics and graphs I saw, but I saw them in some other place. The SA article, unfortunately, does not explain the units usually used in measuring don. It maily talks about becquerels per cubic meter (radon concentration) but my guess is that the measurements (and the standard of "4) are in terms of picocuries per liter -- which would be smaller by a factor of 37. If I am righ(and you'd better check whether these are really the units), your concentration in becquerels per cubic meter would be about 100, giving you a death risk about equal that for home accidents and much lower than for auto accidents. Moreover the risk of cancer from radon and cigarette smoker are probably superadditive (but less than multiplicative), so if you and your family aren't smokers, the risk is much less. That's all the cheery news I have at the moment. HASimon - ------- Received: from SAGE.PSY.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 12 May 88 09:58:46 EDT Date: Thursday, 12 May 88 09:53:46 EDT From: lucas (Pete Lucas) @ sage.psy.cmu.edu Subject: re: Radon Test Resuls To: das @ fas.ri.cmu.edu Status: R The units are picocuries per liter. It is correct that the EPA guideline is 4. It is a complex issue, though. There is an excellent summary article on the topic in the 29 April 1988 issue of SCIENCE which I strongly recommend if you care about such things. -pete Received: from SENSOR.RI.CMU.EDU by FAS.RI.CMU.EDU; 13 May 88 16:43:41 EDT Date: Fri, 13 May 1988 16:30-EDT From: Mel.Siegel@SENSOR.RI.CMU.EDU To: David.Simon@FAS.RI.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Test Results Message-Id: <579558625/mws@SENSOR.RI.CMU.EDU> Status: R The units are picocuries of Radon per liter; the EPA safety level is 4 pCi/l. FYI, 1 curie = number of disintegrations/sec equal to what you get from 1 gram of radium = 3.7E+10 per second, pico = 1E-12, and a liter is a little over a quart, and about the volume of your lungs. Your lungs are being exposed something like ten radon disintegrations per minute. -- Mel To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions Cc: Bcc: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 16:29:46 EDT From: segall@HUMMINGBIRD.WARP.CS.CMU.EDU Sender: segall@HUMMINGBIRD.WARP.CS.CMU.EDU In article <735397591/pomerlea@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU> you write: >We're looking to buy a new house, and in the home inspection it was >found that the house has high radon levels (15.7 pCiu/L in the finished >basement, 7.0 on the first floor and 6.0 on the second floor). It is >obviously too high, and I was wondering if anyone had any advice about >what to do about it. > >First off, how should we handle it with the sellers? Should we ask them >to fix the house, or ask them to take money off the price and get it >done ourselves? > >Does anyone have experience with people who fix radon problems? How >much did it cost you? What was your initial radon level and how low did >it go after the treatment? > >Any advice would be appreciated. > >Thanks, > >--Dean The simplest cure I ever heard of was from a cousin who had a french drain in his basement. He filled it in, and the problem went away. More expensive cures tend to ventilation techniques. I believe. It really depends on what's causing your problem, and how "tight" your house is. - --Ed Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 16:31:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Ricky Houghton To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions I can't comment about the radon fix in particular, (unless the house is rather new, in which case, fixing it is quite easy as they should have installed appropriate vents. You need only add blowers to either end of the vents. This is the case with our house, it's 5 years old.) It seems that you should ask them to have it done by a contractor before closing. If there are misc. expenses that show up during the process, they will be responsible. Instead of discovering a month later that it is going to cost much more than expected. Ricky Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 16:32-EDT From: Daniel.Rehak@KIEL.EDRC.CMU.EDU To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions There is a local company called Hardico which does radon abatement. They can look at the house and give an estimate. I have no idea of the cost, they have to dig up parts of the basement, etc., but they say they will get the levels down to a safe level or will fix it at no additional cost. We delt with them when building our house to get an idea for a radon system before construction. I have 2 phone numbers: Ray Rowe 771-7974, 331-7348 - Dan Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 17:46-EDT From: Donald.Lindsay@GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions >high radon levels (15.7 pCiu/L in the finished >basement, 7.0 on the first floor and 6.0 on the second floor). I tested my house a while back, and was amazed at the sleaziness of the test. Leave a piece of film lying around for days, then have it developed. I forget the exact numbers, but I think that one particle track was *more* than one pCiu/L, ie your "15.7" figure is more rationally "10 to 20 somewhere". Or worse. If your test was better than mine, let me know? Don To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Reply-to: toad@cs.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Radon Questions Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 18:22:34 -0400 From: Todd_Kaufmann@FUSSEN.MT.CS.CMU.EDU From what little i know: radon seeps in through the basement, and is a worse problem in new houses because of the airtight seal. Can it be cleared by ventilation? A periodically running fan, say out the dryer duct? -todd To: Dean.Pomerleau@POMERLEA.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: Radon Questions Date: Thu, 22 Apr 93 9:06:16 EDT From: berman@BERMAN.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU Sender: berman@BERMAN.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU Dean, When I bought my house, I did not have high radon levels, thankfully, but here are some tips about dealing with the house sale and radon. 1) Test it yourself. The kit costs under $10 analysis included from a company located on McKnight Road just off of I-279. The company is called MICROBAC labs. 2) More than one testing is reccomended. It sounds like you already did this with a basement/first/second floor series of tests. 3) If your agreement to buy and sell has a Radon clause, it is entirely your choice to 1) quit the deal, get your hand-money back 2) Make them fix it before selling 3) Make them take down the selling price. If you chose #3, you should have several contractors assess the situation. Then the estimates become part of the closing agreement and the price is adjusted. From what I have read, Radon removal involves installing continuous operation fans that circulate the contaminated air out of the living space (into the open atmosphere). Since radon is colorless and odorless, all you are doing is getti ng the radioactive gas out of your living space by blowing it outside. Since these fans must run all the time they become an added electrical cost to your monthly utilities. Good luck, Steve Date: Thu, 22 Apr 93 11:04:53 EDT From: Patrick Muir To: Dean.Pomerleau@cs.cmu.edu Subject: Radon Cc: muir@FRC2.FRC.RI.CMU.EDU Dean, My wife and I are also looking into buying a house. From what I have learned, the purchase agreement spells out what can be done in these cases. If you haven't signed an agreement yet, you can do anything; i.e, ask for a lower pric e, ask to have it fixed, etc. If you have an agreement, then that agreement either has a contingency pending a radon inspection or it does not. If it does not, then you would need to have the problem fixed at your own expense or decide not to fix it. If it has a contingency, then you may back out of the agreement or ask the seller to fix the problem at his expense. Some contingencies specify a maximum or minimum cost for such a repair, so you would need to read the fine print. For example, if the repair is less than a certain amount, you may be forced to pay yourself. Or there may be a statement to the effect that if the repair is above a certain amount and the buyer demands it, the seller may back out of the agreement. So, in the case you have an agreement with a contingency on a radon inspection, you should read your agreement closely. Could you forward any other replies you get to me? I'm interested in experiences of those who have paid to fix a radon problem. P A T ------- End of Forwarded Message