Received: from SPICE.CS.CMU.EDU by K.CS.CMU.EDU; 24 Jul 87 10:57:13 EDT Received: from BK.SEI.CMU.EDU by SPICE.CS.CMU.EDU; 24 Jul 87 10:56:17 EDT Date: Friday, 24 July 1987 10:52:40 EDT From: Barbara.Zayas@sei.cmu.edu To: bovik@spice.cs.cmu.edu Subject: House closings & lawyers: Compendium of net mail Message-Id: <1987.7.24.14.51.33.Barbara.Zayas@sei.cmu.edu> Messages from /usr/bjz/mail.hg: 133? +22 Jul 87 leung%uicsrd.CSRD... Closing (11418) ---------- ---- Message 133 (11418 chars) is ---- Received: from a.cs.uiuc.edu by sei.cmu.edu (4.12/4.7) id ; Wed, 22 Jul 87 21:39:09 edt; Received: from uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU by a.cs.uiuc.edu with SMTP (UIUC-5.52/9.7) id AA23119; Wed, 22 Jul 87 20:50:06 CDT Received: by uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU (4.12/9.2) id AA07308; Wed, 22 Jul 87 20:49:25 cdt Date: Wed, 22 Jul 87 20:49:25 cdt From: leung%uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU@a.cs.uiuc.edu (Bruce P. Leung) Message-Id: <8707230149.AA07308@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU> To: bjz@sei.cmu.edu Subject: Closing Barbara, I posted the same question not long ago and I am including the mail and net responses that I got. I ended up getting a lawyer for my closing and was quite happy with my decision. It wasn't really the fact that he 'caught' anything I wouldn't have but the peace of mind it gave me was well worth it. This was my first time for buying a house (actually I bought a condo) so I wasn't familiar with how things were done. I had a VERY good real estate agent and I had complete confidence in her and wasn't going to have a lawyer initially (although she did recommend having a lawyer from the start). Her recommendation to get a lawyer was not influenced by personal gain (i.e. a friend of hers, etc.) since she never gave me any names and I ended up getting a recommendation from somebody else. Anyways, good luck and hope these help! Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Leung leung@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Univ. of Illinois {ihnp4,seismo,pur-ee}!uiucuxc!uicsrd!leung ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It depends on what the law and customs are where you are doing it. In Ohio we didn't have one either for buying or selling our house, but we will need one for the house in Pennsylvania we are about to buy. Here in New York, you are apparently required to have one, and the buyer gets to pay for the bank's lawyer (!). It's best to conform to local expectations in matters like this. ---------- The information in your posting was not quite sufficient to be as helpful as I might be, but I have gone through two closings, one with my own lawyer, and one without. The silly answer is "of course you do" because you need to make certain all the paperwork is handled properly; if you need to ask whether you need a lawyer, then you don't know enough to handle the paperwork properly and you probably won't be able to learn it in one month. The correct answer is: you need the lendor's lawyer or some other lawyer well- versed in real estate law at a minimum; this makes sure you really own the property after the closing. If you have a mortgage through a bank or mortgage company, you almost certainly will have the bank's lawyer at the closing as a condition of the loan. Now for the real question: do you need your own lawyer in addition to the bank's lawyer. Well . . . Consider that a closing is not (or shouldn't be) an adversary proceding, i.e., both sides have a vested interest in cooperating with each other (provided you chose a reputable lendor), so you may assume the bank is not out to screw you. On the other hand, the bank's lawyer is working for the bank, not you, so (s)he is protecting the bank and may, but is not required to, help you and is required by law to side with the bank wherever your interests and the bank's interests collide. Now for the advice and disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, have never been, have never been licensed to practice law anywhere, am merely passing along my own experience, etc.; check with a lawyer licensed in your own jurisdiction before making any decisions. In general, it never hurts to have your own lawyer present at the closing, though most will tell you they would prefer to be in on the transaction from the beginning (before you signed ANY papers). If you're at all worried, go ahead and get your own; if you own any other property or are involved in a chain transaction, you SHOULD have your own lawyer. At the very worst, most lawyers charge less to represent you at the closing than the bank's lawyer (yes, you're probably paying his/her fee as well); consider how much money you would pay as insurance to protect your entire net worth including the property you're buying. Let me know what you decide if you get a chance. ---------- Make sure you have one. It was the best $150 I ever spent! ---------- I have mine house closed by non-lawyer (tried using the escrow and title company) and happy with it. They essentially do the same service as the real estate lawyers. The only problem one could see clearly is that if you are expecting some technical problem then the non-lawyer could not help you much at all. Like if there are some damage and you would like to do some negotiation in the escrow account then the non-lawyer may sit on the fence. Bear in mind that some real estate lawyers may also sit at the fence (neutral). I had this once when my lawyer at the time of closing sit at the table and refused to say a word. I lost my case to the other party because the other lawyer spoke a word. The damage was a wet basement due to her STUPIDITY in asking the power company to turn off the electricity about 3 days before closing. Hence the sump pump does not work and flooded the basement (call it an in-door swimming pool). Now, I save a bit of money from using non-lawyer to do my closing not much ($150 the most) since everything charge is about 20-40% lower than the standard rate. Also, come in to the settlement with plenty of paper, pen and a calculator. Never know who may not be able to do simple arithmetics. The incident I had (again with the same lawyer for closing), screw my closing cost. He wanted additional $6,000 in it and I have to CONVINCE that he is wrong. It took me an hour to straighten his math skill. Boy! I wish I could make that rate for my job. /* Written 12:59 am May 25, 1987 by osmigo@ut-ngp.UUCP in uicsrd:misc.consumers.house */ In article <5400003@uicsrd> leung@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: >Is it necessary to have a lawyer at a closing? What are the advantages or >disadvantages (besides cost)? If it makes any difference, I'll be closing >on a condominium in about a month. I don't know what the cost would be, but if you're closing on a condo, it might be worth your while to have someone there who could question any papers you sign, considering the problems condo owners have traditionally had (main- tenance contracts, etc.). For example, I recently knew of one condo complex that replaced ALL the concrete patios, for some reason. The cost had to be borne by the owner(s). Not cheap, either. Speaking about closings in general, though, I've been a real estate salesman before, and recently purchased a new home, and I have a few words to say about that whisper-when-you-say-it ritual known as "coming to the closing table." First of all, the realtor places a GREAT emphasis on getting the buyer to this point. After all, this is when you actually "buy" the property, i.e., "sign on the dotted line." The rep who sold me the house repeatedly mentioned in conversation "when you come to the closing table" as if it were some great, special event. Supposedly, all kinds of people were going to be there, including the salesman, my insurance agent, the subdivision sales manager, an HOW rep, and 3 or 4 others. I was repeatedly told to be "very careful" what time I selected to do this, since it was "very difficult" to get all those people scheduled to be there at once, ec. Just before the big day arrived, there was some light-hearted jibing about "are you ready?" and so on. Urg. Well, it didn't amount to a hill of beans. There was just me and a woman from the mortgage company, and that was it. She had a HUGE stack of papers for me to sign. We spent about an hour draining the pen dry, and it was all over. It also turned out that there was an "error" in the totaly move-in costs to the tune of about $1000 which was not revealed until the middle of this process. I was also repeatedly told that the EXACT amount of the payments could not be determined until the actual closing. The jist is that by the time you get that far, you'll be more likely to go along with it, whereas if such complications developed earlier, you might back out of the deal. It's a not-too-unusual practice to quote a prospect a payment size about $20 low, and then when he's actually "at the closing table" he'll go along with it. Neat trick, but it works. One more: buyers of new homes are typically required to do a "walk-through" inspection and note various defects in a new home that must be repaired before the closing. Little flaws in the paint, crooked fixtures, that sort of thing. After the repairs are made, you go through it again on a second walk-through and verify that it's all satisfactory. You MUST be satisfied with these touch-ups BEFORE the deal can be closed, BUT... it's a common practice among realtors to make this final check-out just an hour or so before the closing. By t this time, the buyer is climbing the walls with anxiety and desire to "move in," so he won't call off the whole thing because of one or two smudges in the paint. After all, wouldn't it be AWFUL to inconvenience all these "important people" who had somehow found time in their busy schedules to "meet you at the closing table"? I mean, you might have to put off the "big event" for WEEKS before it could all be "set up" again. Don't believe it. The real estate business is rife with smooth talkers and would-be con artists that would put many car salesmen to shame. I've even seen training sessions where they practiced these routines with each other on videotape for days on end. At any rate, look out for #1, and don't let anybody buffalo you into doing something you don't want to do. Ron Morgan "Let us all join hands and come to the closing table..." -- osmigo, UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas 78712 ARPA: osmigo@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU UUCP: ihnp4!ut-ngp!osmigo allegra!ut-ngp!osmigo gatech!ut-ngp!osmigo seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo /* End of text from uicsrd:misc.consumers.house */ /* Written 12:40 am May 25, 1987 by chedley@inteloc.intel.com in uicsrd:misc.consumers.house */ In article <5400003@uicsrd> leung@uicsrd.CSRD.UIUC.EDU writes: > > >Is it necessary to have a lawyer at a closing? What are the advantages or >disadvantages (besides cost)? If it makes any difference, I'll be closing >on a condominium in about a month. > Hiring a lawyer for the closing of real-estate transaction is, in my opinion, a must, especially if you are the Buyer. ADVANTAGES: Review all documents (Title, Deed, Bank note,...) and hold off the closing until you and he are satisfied that everything is OK. Read the very fine and not so fine print of all these documents, and request their modification to your satisfaction. DISADVANTAGES: If the lawyer represents also another party in the transaction (the bank, for example). ..CHEDLEY.. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am cross-posting this to misc.legal. We may get better opinions on this. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- /* End of text from uicsrd:misc.consumers.house */