Return-Path: Received: from ius5.ius.cs.cmu.edu by K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU id aa19897; 26 Jun 91 10:40:05 EDT Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:34:20 EDT From: Jennifer.Kay@IUS5.IUS.CS.CMU.EDU To: bovik@CS.CMU.EDU Subject: US citizens marrying foreigners Hiya again. I put a post on general trying to get some information about marrying a foreigner, here's my post and a bunch of responses. Two important points if you don't feel like reading the whole thing: 1) INS has a local number that you can call that will put you through to a bunch of recorded announcements about lots of stuff. It's good. 2) For what I want, a lawyer isn't really necessary, but if you want one a couple of people below recommend the same guy. ---------------------- MY POST: ---------------------------------- 24-Jun-91 09:16 Jennifer.Kay Info wanted: Marrying a foreign\ er From: Jennifer.Kay@IUS5.IUS.CS.CMU.EDU Hi folks. I'm looking for someone who is a US citizen who married a non-US citizen. In the not too distant future I will fit this category, and I'm trying to find someone who has been through the official hassles of dealing with INS. My questions: 1. Does anyone actually know of someone who used a "fiance" visa to enter this country before their marriage? 2. After the marriage how long do you have to wait before the foreign spouse can work? Can you start the application process before the wedding? Does that speed anything up? 3. Is it worth talking to a lawyer who knows something about this branch of law? Does anyone know of any lawyers who know something about this subject? (About two years ago someone sent Bovik the name of one such lawyer, but it looks more like an advertisement than a recommendation) If you have any ideas about the answers to any of these questions, PLEASE send me some mail. Thanks, Jennie -------------------- RESPONSES ---------------------------------- Jenny, I am a foreigner who just got married to a U.S. citizen three months ago. I also applied for permanent residency at the local INS office. 1. I was here on a student visa so I didn't enter on a fiance visa, although I saw provisions for that in the paperwork we had to fill. 2. I filed for permanent residency immediately after the marriage. You can also file at the same time (and in person at the INS office, whereas the usual procedure is to send the forms by mail) for an employment authorization which will be granted within days if all the other forms are complete and are favorably reviewed. 3. My wife is a lawyer (and knew a friend who specializes in immigration law in NYC) so we didn't have to resort to that. My impression was that if you have a good enough command of English to understand and fill in the forms correctly and if your case does not involve any "special", "complicated" or "delicate" matter, it is not necessary. I am told that fees for this type of assistance can range from a few hundred to several thousand dollars. -------------------------------- I recently got a green card after several years of tedious paperwork and procedures; I could not imagine doing this without the help of a lawyer. Your situation may be different (getting married wasn't part of my picture), but I believe that dealing with the INS and Labor Dept. is painful no matter what. Just getting straight information on what to do and - more importantly - what NOT to do can require a significant amount of research effort. Although lawyers are expensive, I'd recommend at least getting advice on the overall process and your situation in particular. You may find that doing the paperwork yourself after that is feasible. The lawyer who helped me is John Brendel - he specializes in immigration law and handles most, if not all, of CMUs cases in this area. John Brendel Buchanan Ingersoll Professional Corporation 58th Floor 600 Grant St. Pittsburgh, PA 15219 562-8972 Hope this helps. --------------------------------------------- Hello, My wife is Chinese but she was already here, on a non-immigrant visa, when we got married. So we had to petition to adjust her status from non-immigrant to immigrant, which you may or may not have to do depending on whether the "fiance" visa is classed as immigrant..... but apart from that, our interview with the Immigration & Naturalization Service is the same as yours will be, most likely. Whether or not your spouse can work depends entirely on the class of visa they enter on, and their current status once they're here (the status can sometimes be adjusted after entering). Some visas permit immediate employment, others forbid it. Once you're married you need to adjust their status, to permanent residency (actually it's temporary for two years when it comes from a marriage to a US citizen, and then becomes permanent after one more interview). As soon as the status is adjusted at the immigration interview, though, your spouse can go and get a job the same afternoon, because the status of permanent residency, even when temporary, is authorized for immediate employment. So I guess you want to have your interview soon after your marriage. Actually, if you call the local office of the Immigration & Naturalization Service (try real early in the morning before they get busy), they can be more helpful and talkative than you would expect. Now they have an automated phone system which will play you various pre-recorded tapes on various subjects, but you can eventually get through to a real imm. officer and I suggest that you talk to one briefly. You don't have to tell them your name, just describe the situation and ask some questions. Get it straight from their end first. (listen to the relevant tapes first, then call back to talk to a human) Then maybe talk to a lawyer, but don't pay one unless it's necessary. CMU retains an immigration lawyer and we called his office once but we didn't need him - John Brendall , (412) 562-8972. Unless you have an unusual problem, just talk to the INS officers and they will help you as best they can, they are nice people, believe it or not! As soon as you are married and have the marriage certificate in hand, you can hop downtown for a visit with the Immigration officers downtown (they're in the Federal building on Liberty Ave.). When you talk to them on the phone, you should have the necessary forms mailed to you in advance (the recorded messages allow you to leave your address and which forms you need). I don't know about the "fiance visa", that's actually the State Dept.'s domain and not INS. You'll need their form which is a petition to declare that your husband is now the spouse of an American citizen (i.e. you), and along with that comes an application for adjustment of their status (from non-immigrant to immigrant) but maybe in your case if the "fiance" visa is already classified as an "immigrant" visa, you'll only need the form to declare that they are now officially your spouse. Collect your stuff like proof of citizenship and marriage certificate. Make Xerox copies of stuff like passports, birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc., bring both the originals and the copies with you.....plus two pictures of each of you - they have requirements for the pictures, there are two kinds (passport-stye and visa-style), I think these ones are basically the visa-style with the right ear showing. Then you take a trip down to the INS office, no appointment, just show up and take a number. They will look over the forms and the originals of all your supporting materials. They will stamp the Xerox copies as being certified authentic by them - they'll keep the copies and give back the originals. Some time later after the forms have circulated through their bureaucracy to Washington & back here, you get a letter from them which informs you that you are scheduled for an immigration interview on such and such a date. When you go to the interview, maybe you want to bring stuff like wedding pictures, old letters, etc. just in case there's some suspicion that you guys are faking this just to get a green card (i.e. like in the movie with Gerard Depardieu :-) but in real life it's not so dramatic, I guess they can tell with most people if it's a genuine marriage. If you pass at this interview, they'll stamp your husband's passport with an "immediately authorized for employment" and sometime after that you'll get his green card in the mail. ------------------------------------------- Jennie, I reccomend that you do this without having to deal with a lawyer. They are expensive and the matter is pretty straightforward. I can't tell you about fiance visas for sure but I am pretty doubtful that such things exist. The best way to deal with this is to call up a phone number that is listed in the blue pages under the INS. This will connect you to an automated service that will give you all sorts of precise information about what sorts of forms you need to fill and what conditions you need to meet. At the end, you can order a bunch of booklets that will give you the information in writing. I used this to file an immigrant visa application for my wife and I found it very helpful. If you do need a lawyer, I reccomend John Brendal . He is excellent. His number is 562-8972. Good luck, and please forward this to Bovik; the info might be handy for someone else. ----------------------------------------- In article <1991Jun24.134323.26875@cs.cmu.edu> you write: >Hi folks. I'm looking for someone who is a US citizen who married a non-US >citizen. In the not too distant future I will fit this category, and I'm >trying to find someone who has been through the official hassles of dealing >with INS. I'm the foreigner, my wife is a US citizen. >My questions: > 1. Does anyone actually know of someone who used a "fiance" visa to > enter this country before their marriage? I know someone who did this. Probably not a reliable source of information. One thing I'm fairly sure of: the fiance visa route is different to the "enter as a visitor" and then marry route. I was on a student visa (F-1) when I met my wife. > 2. After the marriage how long do you have to wait before the > foreign spouse can work? Can you start the application > process before the wedding? Does that speed anything up? Note: fiance visa may allow working, I don't know. In our case, I couldn't work until we filed the application for permanent residency. For this we needed a marriage certificate. You fill out a petition to have your spouse's status converted to PR, he fills out the application to become a PR. Then you both go down to the INS office and file them in person. You have an interview, at which he requests permission to work while the application is pending - it should be granted automatically, for about six months. As soon as this is done (I think it is stamped in the passport), he can work. Some months later, he should get a provisional permanant residency status letter. He takes the letter to the INS office and they issue him a card with his picture and stamped that he is allowed to work. This is NOT the "green card", which is now pink anyway. Two years later (that is, two years after PR was filed for), you and he go back to the INS office and they grill you to make sure it wasn't an arranged marriage. If you are marrying someone from a western industrialized country who is white, this should be no problem. Otherwise, it helps to be prepared for searching questions. In our case, they asked for evidence that we were still together, such as children or joint debt! Some time later (months), he gets a letter saying PR has been granted, and he goes down to the INS office to give them fingerprints. Six to nine months later, he gets the "green card". In my case, we filed for PR in August 1987 and I recieved the green card in April 1991 - three and a half years! The degree of hassle involved here depends a lot on where you live. We did it in LA and it was a nightmare - e.g., to file for PR initiallly we had to line up at 2 in the afternoon and spend the night outside the office, with several hundred other people, in downtown LA with helicoptors overhead, police sirens nonstop, etc. I've found the Pgh INS office to be much easier. In summary, he can work as soon as you file the PR application, which can be as soon as you obtain a marriage license. There are some things you can do beforehand to prepare: obtain photos, to INS specs; he gets fingerprinted at an INS approved place; he gets an AIDS test at an INS approved place. You should get hold of the requisite forms asap to find out just what documentation you need. If you have a choice between fiance visa and visitor visa prior to marriage, I would check out the differences. I think the fiance visa is applied for in his home country - and it can take a long time. Also, to get it he may need police and tax reports from every country he's lived in to certify he isn't a criminal and doesn't owe taxes. The route I went, I didn't have to come up with that documentation. > 3. Is it worth talking to a lawyer who knows something about this > branch of law? Does anyone know of any lawyers who know > something about this subject? (About two years ago someone > sent Bovik the name of one such lawyer, but it looks more > like an advertisement than a recommendation) We did it all ourselves. If it is a straightforward case and you are prepared to carefully read and re-read the paperwork, you can do it without a lawyer. You may also have to spend frustrating amounts of time on the phone to incompetent INS people trying to find out what to do. When we file for PR initially, the clerk was surprised that we had the paperwork right. Lawyers can get very expensive very fast. I know several other people who have done this themselves. Since we did the PR application, I've gone on to probate my mother-in laws estate without a lawyer. It is really not that hard to figure out this legal stuff - just don't get intimidated. Whether you get a lawyer or not, be prepared for incompetent bureaucracy. That way, if they get it right first time you'll be pleasantly surprised. If you get information over the phone, call again the next day and see if you get the same answer. I think you'll be a lot better off in Pgh than we were in LA - I've had good experiences at the INS office here, and I haven't been put on hold that much on the phone. I think you're about to be deluged with stories of INS nightmares! ---------------------------- I think I can answer your questions: 1. I am a non-US citizen married with a US citizen. A few months before we got married I came to this Country with a Turist visa. We don't know any other kind of visa, like a "fiance" visa. 2. We start taking care of my permanent residence very shortly after the wedding. You will need certificates from your fiance's Country, and if it is not a English speaking Country you will need them translated. The certificates are a birth certificate, and if there was a previous marriage, a divorce certificate. Either you or your fiance can do the translation. INS will ask the one who did the translation to swear the translation is complete and correct, and that will be enough. The only things you can do before the wedding will be to get his and your certificates, and if you want the papers from INS that you'll need to fill. You will also need prove that you have a full time job, and can support your spouse. The foreign spouse can work as soon as his/her residence is approved, and with us it took arround 3 months between we start the process and the residence got approved. Nothing can make it take less time, because you need to get the medical reports before you can enter the papers ti INS, and after they take 2 to 3 month to do the paper work. 3. There is no way the permanent residence can be refused (since 1987, it will be a temporary permanent residence until 2 years after it is approved), so I don't see any reason to spend money with a lawyer, he/she will not be able to make things go faster then you can do by yourselfs. I think this is enough to give you an idea of how things work, but I will be happy to answer any questions you have about the process. -------------------------------- The fiance visa is supposed to be a good thing, it allows the fiance to come into the US and work, and prepared the ground work so that once you're married, the green card business goes quickly and smoothly. However, I know someone who did this and the US Consulate in France made a mistake on the paperwork and due to the fiance visa, it took about 18 months to sort everything out. The net result being worse than if the fiance had come in to the US on a tourist visa, gotten married and then tried to change status. That was in LA where the INS is backed up about 6 months. Things might have gotten straightened out more quickly in Pgh. Our interactions with the Pgh office have been quite pleasant compared to LA. In any case, I think you should try the fiance visa route, but you have to be careful. Tell your fiance to always get the name of any INS or US Consulate personnel that he deals with. The main problem is that they make alot of mistakes and there seem to be alot of inconsistencies between what the US Consulate thinks is proper procedure and what the INS thinks is proper procedure. Having the name of someone that you can call back and help get things straightened out is essential. Assume mistakes will be made. Unless you're trying to marry someone from a country that the US is currently not friendly with, things should be fairly straightforward and xxx and I have always been able to handle the paperwork ourselves. But many of our friends have decided to hire attorneys to expedite things and to be on the safe side. I've always assumed that I would handle it myself unless it looked like they weren't going to do what I wanted, at which time I could then hire an attorney. Unfortunately, it turns out that not all transactions with INS are revokable and you CAN actually screw things up in ways that make it very difficult to start over again. Another thing you have to be prepared for is the disgusting amount of prejudice in the INS. In general, white Anglo-Saxons with Oxbridge accents get treated like humans. Almost anyone else gets treated as if they have no business trying to marry their way into the US (this is of course the only reason why a foreigner marries an American!) So, unless your fiance speaks perfect English and looks like a WASP, you should do as much of the talking as possible. It would be nice if things were different, but they're not and wait until your fiance has a green card before you try to change anything! One last piece of advice. A friend of mine in LA who married a white South African was having alot of trouble getting him a green card. She called her representative to the US House of Representatives and someone in his office called the INS and straightened things out. After that, she called the congressman's office to get advice every step of the way. So, you might want to start by calling your congressman's office to get information and advice. I hope things go smoothly for you. The fiance visa is supposed to do that and is the correct way to bring someone in the US to get married. But do keep careful records of all the people that you deal with so that you can clear up errors if any happen. Good luck and I hope this helps,