Return-Path: Received: from gs17.sp.cs.cmu.edu by K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU id aa06213; 13 Jul 91 23:19:14 EDT Received: from Messages.7.8.N.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.GS17.SP.CS.CMU.EDU.rt.r3 via MS.5.6.GS17.SP.CS.CMU.EDU.rt_r3; Sat, 13 Jul 91 23:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jul 91 23:18:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Conrad.J.Poelman@cs.cmu.edu To: Bovik@K.GP.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: Banks & Credit Cards Dr. Bovik, I recently posted a request for information on banks and credit cards to the CS general bulletin board, and here are the (many!) responses I received. I have summarized them as well as adding the current rates and fees in the Guide to living in Pittsburgh, but have not included that here. (I can send you that too if you want.) --Conrad ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Banks: Horizon/Union Nat'l: I had a CD at Horizon, but it got taken over by Union. Suddenly, the rates went down (banks in trouble frequently have high rates) and service seemed less friendly. Equibank: MAC guaranteed free until 1993 (they keep extending that date) -- free use of ALL machines They have the only MAC machines which dispense stamps (they have some of the newest MAC machines). Regularly have the highest CD rates in the Shadyside/Sq.Hill area. A subsidiary (in Philly area) is rather shaky. The people at Walnut St. branch are friendly & most recognize me now. Credit cards: Discover: Can't use it everywhere, but you get up to 1% back each year. No annual fee. Harder to get a high credit limit. Supposedly harder to get, but I had no trouble. Provide coupons for stuff, mostly travel related. AT&T Univeral (MasterCard or Visa): If you signed up in the first year, no annual fee (I don't know about signing up now.). Can also use as AT&T calling card, 10% discount off normal rates. American Express: Can't use it everywhere (they charge more from the merchant, so they don't like it). HIGH annual fee ($55) Main reason to get is the coupons for cheap airline tickets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the info I collected after Integra (Union bank, seneca, one other PGH area) took over Horizon Savings. Renee still has an account at Union and Integra is the worst bank around. As far as credit cards go I would say go for the student Discover card. No annual fee, reasonable interest (but you are stupid if you ever leave a balance) and they give you a small amount back at the end of the year. I got mine by filling out a handout I found in the 5200 hall. Bank cards are generally a ripoff. They have higher interest rates, an annual fee, and usually shorter grace periods. Bank info --------- Current as of Oct 1990 Alleg Valley 621-6626 checking interest 5% 1K min or $5/mo no fee checking w/ no interest no overdraft available savings 5.5% passbook 5.5% statement MAC free on their machines .50/trans on other machines Dollar Bank 782-4848 checking interest 4.25% 750 min or 4.5% 2.5K min or $6/mo overdraft included savings 4.75% 100 min 5.5% 2.5K min MAC .15/transaction if you fall below min balance, free with mins EquiBank 784-8600 checking interest 4.25% $1.5K or $6/mo overdraft protection no fee for <$50, $5 fee for >$50 savings 4.75% 100 min or $1.5/mo 5.59% 1K min MAC no fee Mellon Bank 781-8300 checking interest 4.25% $2K min or $7/mo no interest free with direct deposit savings 4.5% $100 min or $1/mo 5.45% $2.5K average for 2 mo or $6/mo MAC use Mellon machine for free transactions or $.75 for each non-Mellon machine Pgh National 781-8705 checking interest 4.25% $1k min or $2K saving min 4.25% under 4.75% > 2.5K $2.5K min or $3.5Kmin somekind of visa related overdraft saving 5.60% $1K min or 4.7% for <$1K Atlantic Financial 782-6500 (taken over by gov) checking interest 4.88% $1000 min or $7/mo fee fee $5/mo if more than $100 you get 4.88% fee $4/mo 500 min no overdraft protection Savings 4.88% 100 min statement or passbook 5.6% 1K min money market 7.16% 5K min " Parkvale Savings 521-4800 Kim checking interest 5%, $500 min or direct deposit or $1000 min in save $20/yr fee for overdraft protection (good for 4 booboo's) Savings 5.5%interest, 100 min balance or $2/mo service either passbook or statement(MAC access) Mac $5 annual fee, no transaction fees ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I currently have an account with Mellon. Of course, I am a measly undergrad who doesn't make all that much money so my experience isn't mainly with dealing with the people but with mac machines. Mellon doesn't hook up to many networks (most banks around here do both Plus and Cirrus, but Mellon just does Cirrus) and they will charge you for using someone else's mac machine ($.50 per go). Also, when my checks cause me to become overdrawn, they charge me a $20 handling fee. This sucks. Also, the checking account I have only lets me have something like 3 free checks a month, which isn't usually enough. In general, I would recommend finding a bank that has free checking and a good mac card system. I was intending to go looking around this summer to find another bank, but maybe I will just wait for your living in pittsburgh info... :-) PS: My friends and I call Mellon the Fascist Bank. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've got an account at Equibank. In general I think that their service is lousy. They do fine on very standard things, but anything that's the least bit odd they can't cope with (eg international money orders (see below)). I stay with them because their charges are good -- I've got free checking because I direct deposit my paycheck every month, and MAC is also free. If they start charging for MAC I'm going to switch banks. One interesting and perhaps useful thing of note for one or two folks is that Equibank does not sell international money orders. Mellon and Pgh National do, but only if you're a customer. I needed one, so I opened up a savings account at Mellon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This will probably be completely unhelpful to you, so feel free to give this a quick glance and toss it. However, IMHO the best banks on the planet are not banks but credit unions, since credit unions are not-for-profit and therefore tend not to rip you off quite so much. I've only had enough contact with the CMU one to notice that it's not open on Thursdays, but my own credit union (Naval Research Laboratory Federal Credit Union in Washington, D.C.) has a minimum balance of $5.00 on savings and nothing in checking with no fees for an account, has competitive interest rates and no charges for checks, free ATM usage, Mastercard at 13.9%, direct deposit, free traveler's checks, etc. etc. I can do all my banking via phone, mail, or ATM, and they are extremely friendly when I call them via their 800-number or come into the office. Obviously it's not going to be the first choice for Pittsburghers, since you can only be a member if you've worked at NRL, but it might give you some idea of the quality of service one can expect. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On a different note: credit cards. I have been very happy with my Discover Card. It doesn't get accepted everywhere, but I use it whenever I can. I know their "1% cash back" advertisement is merely a ploy to win customers, but it's still a nice bonus. Generally they seem very friendly and brightly packaged; they don't charge anything, which is a big plus. I also have an ACM mastercard, which has been OK - they are a lot more impersonal, though they still send you advertisements for very tacky things to be bought at exhorbitant prices on your shiney mastercard. They don't charge for replacements, but they do charge $20/year after the first year. Interest rates are around 18%. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been using Mellon Bank since I got here in the fall of '86. I know that many of my classmates complained about Mellon Bank's service, or complained that "it sucks," without any convincing elaboration on that statement. For my part, I've been satisfied with their performance. The only problem I've had with them was when I stopped receiving bank statements in the mail. I didn't look into it for quite some time, but when I finally went to handle it, it turned out to be a computer error, and they were quite courteous in fixing the problem and making sure everything was O.K. with my account. I know most people these days prefer never to enter a bank, handling all transactions by card or phone, but I go to the office on Fifth and Craig just to get out of Wean Hall for a few minutes, and because I like dealing with people directly. Address changes and check orders have always been painless and the customer service people are friendly. In short, I'm happy with Mellon Bank. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have had an account with PNB since I came to Pgh, and have had no trouble whatsoever. In the few incidents where we had something to 'discuss' they were extremely helpful and adjusted their records. No hassle. I have free checking with them, with no minimun balance or anything, just by having my paycheck direct-deposited. PS I think they still offer the free checking deal with direct deposit, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's my $.02 worth on banks. I've used two banks in Pgh -- Dollar Bank (1987-1989) and People's Bank of Unity (1989-present). BTW, one other piece of info that's worth asking for is how they handle ATM transactions. Dollar Bank: Reasonable service, no mistakes. Rates are competitive with other major banks, which means they're lousy. MAC cards were free in 1987, but by 1989 there was a per-transaction fee which was waived if your account balance were high enough. I got disgusted with them while trying to negotiate a mortgage during the summer of 1989. The branch I normally used (Shadyside) didn't handle mortgages, and the main branch had a knack for losing every piece of information I gave them, as well as being incapable of returning phone calls. People's Bank of Unity: an independent with branches in the eastern suburbs (Penn Hills, Plum, etc.) They have better than average rates, good service, and free MAC cards. I've only had one problem in the past two years, and that was when my MAC card got damaged. They replaced it speedily. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- My bank is Equibank, on the corner of Forbes and Murry. I have found them extremely pleasent and helpful. They are the only bank that I am aware of whose ATM transactions are free on any ATM on the Plus system. This summer I'm in Palo Alto and am using the ATMs here with no problems and no charge. Unfortunately, this situation may change in 1992; they promised free ATM transactions only until then. A problem that a student might encounter with them is that they don't have a day during which they are open late, nor do they have as many branches as some of the larger banks. Wrt minimum balance in checking accounts, I'm fairly sure that the account is free if you have either $500 minimum balance (averaged over the month I think) or you have direct deposit. So anyone receiving a salary should be able to get a free account. They also offer a special account that has a monthly fee but offers free checks, traveler's checks, safe deposit box, etc. (This is similar to Mellon Bank's "smart account". I'm fairly sure that Mellon bank stole the idea from Equibank.) In short, I would highly recommend Equibank. Now on to credit cards: Having lived in Israel for the past 10 years, I had the catch-22 syndrome "no credit card without credit history; no credit history without a credit card". Uponn opening my Equibank account I applied for a Visa through the bank but was turned down. I stopped at Kaufman's a few weeks later, picked out a credit card application, filled it out and sent it in. They approved me. Feeling more credit worthy and having heard that Discover is less strict wrt who they give credit cards to, I applied for one of theirs and was approved ($1000 credit limit). Unfortunately, not every one takes Discover cards. A couple of months later I heard about the the AT&T Universal card (no fee for charter members if you use it once a year, 10% off calling card phone calls) and applied. They granted me one with a $5000 credit limit. Random comments: - It is much more difficult for students who are not U.S. citizens to get credit cards. (I am a U.S. citizen.) - I didn't apply for AMEX because they have a large yearly fee and I didn't need their vouchers. This is probably the best route for non citizens although I heard that they having and using an AMEX card doesn't help too much in getting a different card later. - I didn't apply to Citibank because I first decided to try and get a free card. - Very Important: When writing down salary on the credit card application, a student should include his/her entire salary (tuition, activity fees, etc.) This looks much better on the application (~$30K instead of ~12K). I'm fairly sure that this is why Discover and AT&T gave me a card. Hope this helped a little, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- As far as I'm concerned, you should warn people away from Mellon Bank. I and many people I know originally had accounts at Mellon, were treated like dirt, and switched. I have been a satisfied PNB customer for over 10 years now. No serious mistakes, and they're generally friendly and helpful. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have only terrible experiences with banks here in Pittsburgh. I have faught for hours with Mellon Bank and Pittsburgh National about a SWIFT which is a simple 48 bytes EFT data packet with the little difference that the sender is International. Brokers use them all the time to have their customers pay for stocks. Mellon Bank's supervisor of the supervisor still owes me a call back. Pitsburgh National told me they charge $4 for receiving a SWIFT one but later insisted in a $30 for receiving a wire charge. Technically a SWIFT gets put like an EFT into your account by the computer, no fuzz, no paperwork, no cost for the Bank. Swiss Banks charge $3-5 to send one and happily receive them for free. My conclusion is that Pennsylvania Banking is still in the flintstone age of sending and stamping cheques, while other nations do most payments electronically. You pay your bills monthly by authorizing a dozens of EFT on one form sent to your bank. If one bank is on the forefront let us know which one... Another experience is that Pittsburgh National charges $18 for a banking card with nation-wide access and VISA debit capabilites. After the Pittsburgh Trafic Court issued an arrest warrant for submitting a bouncing cheque I asked to get worry-free checking, an overdraft protection on credit card basis. A different VISAd for $18 per montyear is needed for that. Chase Manhattan, New York offered all these services for free with a combination of interest bearing savings and money market account. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I chose Pittsburgh National when I moved here 8 years ago, and I've never been sorry. (My account is based in the Squirrel Hill branch, but I also use the Oakland branches and very occasionally the downtown and airport branches.) I get free checking with direct deposit of my paycheck, and pay only a modest fee for use of MAC machines (about 5 cents per Trinet transaction the last time I checked.) My husband and I also have a joint account there; we pay something like $40 a year for 2 MAC Visa debit cards, and for that we also get checking and Trinet MAC transactions at no additional charge. I also have a MasterCard through PNB. It has a 17.99% interest rate, which is mid-range, an annual fee somewhere around $30, and has been absolutely trouble-free (which is why I keep on using it!) There have been a couple of times when some business has overcharged my card (once USAir put a plane ticket on TWICE, for instance) and I was able to get the whole thing preliminarily staightened out over the phone, with a follow-up on paper. It didn't take me all day on the phone, either. I've also dealt with getting foreign currency (cash and travelers' checks) through PNB, and with enough advance notice I was able to do it all at the Oakland branch rather than going downtown. There was very little hassle and the fees were reasonable. That's what's kept me from running off to someplace with totally free checking. PNB has what I need when I need it, and they don't tend to make mistakes, and they straighten out other people's mistakes. Once in Squirrel Hill, when I was trying to deposit a check on a Japanese bank (with an American affiliate bank in NY listed right on the check), in dollars, into a friend's account at Mellon Bank, Mellon wouldn't take it. I couldn't get past the tellers to a supervisor, and I had stood in line for half an hour, and my friend was in Japan and her rent here was due and the check for it was already mailed. The money HAD to go in, and there was no reason except ignorance for Mellon to refuse to process the check. I went straight over the PNB, asked for a supervisor who knew about international banking, explained to her that I have two accounts at PNB, and explained the problem, emphasizing that this is why I don't bank at Mellon (which is true--I had heard tales!) She called up Mellon right away and talked to her counterpart there. When I went back, everything was straightened out and they were fairly apologetic. (I did have to stand in line another 20 minutes, though.) PNB didn't have to do that for me, but it only took a couple minutes of their time, and they were very nice about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if this information will be relevant to The Guide but I've discovered the hard way how difficult it can be to get a credit card if you are from out of the country. I've been refused outright by several companies (CitiBank and -- Discover??!) because I am not a permanent resident of the United States (I'm a Canadian working full time at CMU under a J-1 student visa and I may apply for permanent status in a year or so). Others have refused me (I suppose understandably) because I have no credit rating established in the U.S. I find this odd because my salary by itself should certainly be over threshold (but see below). Part of the problem is that the 3 credit reporting companies used by banks in the U.S. do not interact with their Canadian counterparts. I've had 3 credit cards in Canada for over 10 years and I've never missed a payment but I have no way of 'transfering' that credit rating to Pittsburgh. I talked to Equibank and they told me that if I send them the name and number of a credit bureau in Montreal they will try to obtain my credit report from them. I am currently trying this approach with 4 different companies so hopefully I'll get a card from one of them (I can let you know if you like). Bovik (misc) has a fair amound of information on banks and a good note on establishing a credit rating if you do not have one (from Michael Mauldin). In fact, after reading this I wonder if my credit rating might be better if I had spread out the payment of some of my bills. Also, it seems that your salary might not be as important a factor as I thought. Its a pain carrying cash around when I think I might need it and if I use my Canadian VISA or MasterCard in the States, I pay a premium of about 4%. This is because the purchases are converted to Canadian dollars and I have to convert my American salary to Canadian dollars to pay the bills that I get. Also, if I wait for the statements, the payment does not always reach Montreal on time so I usually have to keep track of my bills and send them a cheque about a week before. Hey, I'm just happy for the chance to gripe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dollar Bank: When I tried almost 2 years ago, they required proof` that you live in Pgh to open account. Have high minimum deposit amounts for CDs ($1000?). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I spent a lot of time bank-hopping over the past 3 years or so. I started at First Federal, then went to Horizon, then to Parkvale, skirting Mellon (aka Lemmon), Union, PNB, and even Equibank along the way, all for varying reasons. I have these two classes, Class A and Class B. Class A are just better all round: lower minimum balances, fewer fees, better interest rates, shorter lines, friendlier service. Over time, the set of Class A banks has been shrinking; started out including most of the S&Ls, but as their fortunes went nationally, so did they locally. Parkvale is perhaps the single remaining S&L in the broader CMU area that I rate Class A (I think there are still some out in the boonies). Anyway, you might well have gathered enough information from others to have induced this sort of pattern (in general), and that Parkvale is a decent place and the others I mentioned are not (in particular); I think this is a change from the current contents of the guide. If you haven't induced these things, then I'm happy to take some time and expand on my experience. -------------------------------------------------------------------------